You said, “hijab is not something that I was brought up with nor is it part of my culture. It is my choice”. Yes of course, but you chose a religion, which probably has some cultural parts. You chose all of what you think is Islam.

You said refrain from being in private together, from touching each other, and from having intimate conversation, they not only avoid getting into any kind of illicit relationship why do you think this strengthens marriage in the society? Do you have any scientific documents? Or you merely suppose that these are God’s rules so they are good and can decrease the rate of divorce in an Islamic society? It seems that it is your belief rather that a reasoning. So not looking at each others' bodies does not make the physical person inviolable. Can you prove your claim?
This premise that men are the ones who do most of the manual labor outdoors is a cultural concept. Suppose that all manual works could be done by Robots (a simple example) would it be necessary that men do these physical actions? This hypothesis can be rejected. So you can not say That is why the Quran does not mention anything more about men's dress than that men must cover their "private parts" (defined as from navel to knee; a woman's is from the upper chest to the knee.) the latter part shows that Hejab probably focuses on the sexual parts of body or what is sexually attractive. What do you mean by private parts? Are they the sexual parts of body? Is armpit the private part? It may be asked regarding this interpretation, is it necessary for a man to cover all his body, if he would be sexually attractive? Good question! Who can answer?

As you remarked about the Prophet's example in dress as a traditional male attire of Muslim cultures, it seems that it is an Arabic male attire. What do you mean with traditional?. Does it include Arabic tribal customs or it is merely Sunah? Are all the references of the Sunnah reliable and can we trust them? So it seems that Hejab for men and women is different and your reasoning that both men and women are to cover everything that does not need to be revealed to complete their work is not convincing.
You said the hijab of the Muslim woman is not at all unusual, nor some great oppression for her. this is another cultural matter and being usual and unusual is a cultural issue .So I do not agree that Men and women are completely equivalent in this regard
What do you mean with physical differences between men and women the shape of body or the sexual part of body?

You said “ the process of coming to wear hijab can be beneficial to a woman's inner self you are right when you are talking about Muslims as minority otherwise if you do it as a cultural custom or obligation it doesn’t have that effect. You said when a woman wears hijab on a regular basis, she makes a decision each day to put it on before she goes out, and she sees it every time she looks at her reflection also in a Islamic society it become a habit, a repetitive behavior without any thought.

Most of Muslims (and other religions) do not choose Islam rather they are born Muslim. So most of them have never thought about this issue. They are told that Islam is the best religion ( and believe it without any reason) as the followers of other religions think the same.

If you cannot find any wisdom in Islamic rules, what would you do? Why don’t you eat pork or drink alcohol? What is the benefit of fasting? Suppose that you knew Fasting had some disadvantages (as it seems that it has some harmful physical outcomes) what would you do?
In religion we are talking about beliefs not reasons. Anyway, can you prove the presence of God?

Last word, you said that in “"There is no compulsion in the religion." As holy Quran says. Indeed, you explained the laws that we are compelled to follow. So if Islamic laws are not obligatory, it means that your state should be a secular state. Would you explain your idea in this regard?
Regards

I am sorry that you are so hostile towards hijab and towards Islam in general.

I do my best to learn the texts of Islam and to follow what I believe Allah and His messenger have commanded, and yes I follow as much as I can of what I believe to be Islam.

You dispute the idea that rules of modest dress and conduct are beneficial and strengthen marriage. It seems to me that your real question is whether avoiding premarital sex strengthens marriage. It should be obvious that adultery weakens if not destroys marriage and therefore married people should be cautious to avoid anything that may lead to adultery. If we agree that that is the case then what you are really protesting is following those strict rules even when one is not married. I'm also baffled by your mention of divorce statistics. Clearly being free and easy in dress and behavior has not done much to decrease divorce rates in the West!

The rest of your comments about hijab are also confusing to me. I don't really understand what you're trying to say or exactly what you object to in what I wrote.

It seems clear to me that you don't accept the basis of my arguments and therefore you will never be convinced of the points I am trying to make. Instead of debating the fine details of hijab and the like, why don't we cut straight to the point? You don't believe in God because you have no proof of His presence. It follows that you don't find religion important and don't find it a sufficient motivation for a person to do anything. I do. Sister, I cannot persuade you if you have not opened your mind to listen.

Finally, in regard to compulsion, that is not what I meant at all and I'm not sure how you got that meaning out of it. Maybe you could read my post on Islam and individual freedom. You seem to have missed the entire point I was trying to make there.

I am sorry that there is such a gulf between us and that we have so little understanding of each other. Like I said, I think this comes down to that you don't consider religion valid and I do.

Faith is something that each of us must find for ourselves. I can give you arguments and I can tell you about how I find my faith, but it won't be the answer for you unless and until you are willing to open your heart and let it be. You can challenge me all you want but until you approach me with a willingness to listen and learn you will never find my answers satisfying, even if they were logically impeccable. I think that's true about everything and it's especially true about something as personal as faith in God.

I do not know why you think that I am hostile towards hijab and towards Islam. You have tried to give your readers some reasons and I only discussed on your reasoning. It seems that you did not make any distinction between social and personal matters.

Opposite sex relationship has the wide spectrum. The problem is that adultery and premarital sex are at the end of this spectrum. In fact, adultery is a moral matter rather than a Islamic issue and you can see all morality system forbid it.

Regarding the rate of divorce, by considering your answer, it shows that marriage and divorce are social matters and Hijab and modesty cannot merely strengthen the marriage

In the rest of my comments I asked some questions. I would like to know your answers to those questions about men’s dress, Prophet’s dress, Arabic male attire, private parts of body and also physical differences between men and women.
You give us some premises as the basis of your arguments and then try to reach to this conclusion that Hijab is a good and advisable. So if your premises would be challengeable, we may reach to another conclusion.
Why do you think that I don't believe in God? I only said that we can prove the presence of God. In fact we believe it. Also I didn't say that religion is not important and cannot be a sufficient motivation for a person to do anything.
In fact, I think if you want to listen it is better to open your heart. These are beliefs and everybody should experience them personally as a religious experience.

Anyway, though “IMAN” is an Arabic female name, but I am your brother :)) it is a male name in Iran.
I hope these explanations clarify my position.

Iman-

I apologize for mistaking you for a woman.

You presented me with a lot of questions about the article on a number of different levels. I also ask you again to read my entry "Islam and individual freedom". I said straight out in that entry that I believe that hijab, prayer, and all other religious actions that affect only the individual should be a personal matter between him/her and God. Why do you question me about it as though you don't think I agree with that statement? In the veiling article I explicitly addressed the question of how I can say something is a "religious obligation" without taking away peoples' choice. Is what I wrote not clear in meaning? Like I said before, I'm confused by the questions you're throwing at me because I feel like I answered them elsewhere and I don't understand why you keep asking them.

I also don't know if you've read any of the other articles on my website or just that one. I have a page of links that includes several on men's dress. I've set out my understanding of what the Quran and Sunna say in regard to the rules of modest dress here. I've presented my personal perspective on why I wear hijab and encourage other Muslim women to do so here.

Let me try to explain what I'm thinking. In my view, there are three levels or steps a woman might take in deciding to wear hijab. The first and most basic is belief in God. The second is the feeling that belief in God entails doing one's best to follow what one believes God has commanded. The third is determining what God has commanded, in order to follow it.

Your original set of questions seemed to take issue with me on all three levels. You asked me about proving God's presence so I assumed you had some doubt or disbelief about that. You also asked me why belief should be reason to do something instead of logic so I assumed that you don't find religious faith to be reason enough to do something.

Now you say that you do in fact agree with me on those issues. Very well, then we can leave aside the questions you asked about them and focus in on what exactly God has commanded. But if you don't agree with me on those points (as your original questions implied to me) then there would be no point in discussing the details of what God has commanded. You can't build a house without a solid foundation.

So please, can you clarify for me at which level you disagree with me? It sounds like you don't believe that the Quran and Sunna (or what I represent to be the Quran and Sunna) are actually God's commands but are largely culture. You would like to obey what God commands, but you don't think that's it. Is this correct?

Once I understand where you really disagree with me I can try to answer your questions.

The second one is clear. At least both of us agree on this point, though there are people who look at this issue through another point of view.

The third one is the most important part, which include Muslims’ understanding of text (Quran and Sunnah) as well as Islamic state, and the like.

Now let’s start with the first item:

Regarding the proof of God's presence, what I said does no mean that I you have some doubt or disbelief about that.We are talking about beliefs not scientific documents. Beliefs are metaphysical issues. We cannot prove them. In fact, they are not falsifiable. You cannot do any experiment on them. According to our observations, we classify and then theorise them. But you cannot scientifically test them. Belief in God is the same. We cannot prove the presence of God by scientific tools. But this does not mean that we cannot believe in God. In this matter we say the belief in God is not irrational or It is possible. Maybe this is the distinction point between such rational beliefs and superstitions. Another example is miracle.
Therefore you can believe in God and also find religious faith to do something because you have a solid foundation
Though I do believe in Quran and Sunnah as well, but we can talk about what there is in Sunnah. Indeed, interpretation of Quran can be different. I think many things in Islam have cultural base. For example all pictures I have seen in you site regarding the Hejab were somehow Arabic.
Anyway. I would like talk about the first level.
Regards

I'm not sure what you mean by the pictures being Arabic. The pictures are taken from what's available on the web. Some of the women are Arab, yes, but I believe that many of them are American Muslims. Some may also be from other countries. If you know of a website where I can find a more diverse collection of pictures, please let me know.

What would you like to discuss about the question of belief in God? Do you feel that I don't agree with you? I've already explained why I misinterpreted your question at first. That doesn't mean I do or don't agree with you, it means I didn't understand why you were asking the question.

I do agree with you in fact. The presence of God is something that can't be proven or disproved scientifically or with rational arguments. That's why when I misunderstood you I told you that I couldn't give you proofs, you would have to open your heart to find the answer for yourself.

Is there some statement you found on my website that implies to you that I do think God's presence can be scientifically proven?

Regarding “Proof”: I think this word is use in he scientific field. If you know any other usage please advise me.

Your pictures: though many of them are not Arabs but they wear Arabic dress. In fact, these are clothes that Arabs in Saudi Arabia wore 1400 years ago and because of geographic situation they still wear.

Now we reach a common point, please let me have your answers to my first comment.

Now, to address your questions, inshallah.

Seeing attractive features of another person's body, being alone in private, touching, and having intimate personal conversation in my experience seem more likely to lead to the development of feelings of sexual attraction and desire than not seeing the person's body, only meeting them where there are other people around, avoiding physical contact, and keeping conversations to matters of business. Do you agree on that much? Or do you need me to provide scientific proof of it?

When men and women feel sexual attraction and desire for each other, they are more likely to have sex than if they don't have those feelings. Do you agree on that much? Or do you again need me to provide scientific proof of it?

The point is, the rules of modest dress and conduct seem to be common-sense ways to decrease the feelings of sexual attraction and desire that men and women feel for each other when they interact, and therefore to decrease the chances that they will decide to have sex.

You have agreed that adultery is morally wrong and should therefore be avoided. One means for a married person to avoid committing adultery is to avoid situations that create a temptation towards adultery. Do you agree that these rules can have the benefit of decreasing adultery if they are followed? Do you see any flaw in my reasoning, or do you merely require scientific proof for any statement that I make?

If you agree that the rules I mentioned can decrease adultery, then the same chain of reasoning means that they can also decrease premarital sex, if unmarried people follow the rules. And if you agree to that, then the real question (as I said in an earlier response) is whether decreasing premarital sex can strengthen marriage or not.

Before I proceed to discuss that question, I would like to know if you agree with my reasoning so far or not. If not, then we need to continue discussing that before moving on to the next level.

Your next question related to my statement that men tend to be the ones who do most of the manual labor outdoors. The context of this statement was that men have an exemption to show additional parts of their bodies because this is necessary for them to complete their work. Men who do not have this exemption should (according to my argument) cover more fully. In a society where robots do manual labor, men would have to cover more fully. However, even in the present time and certainly throughout most of history, men have done most of the manual labor. This is a situation that has existed and people need to know what to do about it. There need to be rules to govern it. I am arguing that the exemption allowing men to uncover is the rule that governs this situation. It would be strange if the Shari'a did not have rules governing such a common situation.

Your next question was what I mean by "private parts". I use that term as I have seen in generally used in discussions of fiqh to mean those parts of the body that may only be seen by a person's spouse. In the Sunni schools, the parts of a man that may only be seen by his spouse are from navel to knee. There are differences of opinion among the Sunni schools about the parts of a woman that may only be seen by her spouse; I gave the one that I think is most correct. I did not go into a detailed explanation of what I meant because the article was intended as a general introduction to the subject for non-Muslims.

Your next question was about what I referred to as "traditional men's dress". You have stated that you believe hijab is actually an Arab cultural dress and is not sunna, so it's not surprising that you feel the same about "traditional Muslim men's dress". There are actually a wide variety of "traditional dress" for men in different Muslim countries. The pictures I posted are somewhat limited by what I can find on the web that happen to make a good illustration; they certainly don't show all the styles that are worn. What most all of these styles have in common is that they cover the man to throat, wrist, and ankle, and that they usually feature some kind of headcovering.

Some schools of thought consider the styles of dress worn by the Prophet (sAas) to be sunna. Others don't, but they consider the practice ('amal) of the Muslims to be a source for determining what the Prophet (sAas) approved of, which is also understood to be sunna. There are also specific rules set out in the hadiths regarding men's dress. I won't discuss those here since this comment is already too long as it is. Finally, there are general hadiths that approve of modesty and encourage people to be modest and their dress and behavior.

I agree with you that the rules for men are not nearly as clear as the rules for women. However, we also need to look at the larger point I was trying to make, which has to do with women's dress as compared to men's dress. One of the major arguments that people make against hijab is that it seems like only women have to follow these rules and men can do whatever they want. My point was that in most all Muslim societies until recent times, men dressed quite modestly so that the degree of modesty asked of women was not so much greater than that. Seen in that context (and you are correct that "usual" and "unusual" depend on context), is hijab oppressive? If so, how?

The question then becomes whether all Muslims should create that kind of social/cultural context in which to live. You believe that they should not because it is not sunna and therefore not necessary for them to do so. I believe that they should. I realize that I've written all these words and come full circle without actually answering your question of why they should. Inshallah, I can address this in another comment (I think it would have been easier on both of us, as well as on anybody else trying to read this comments thread, if you had not asked so bloody many questions all at once).

Let me try to cover your other questions at least briefly. I apologize if I'm leaving anything out completely. You next took issue with the section of my essay devoted to spiritual benefits of hijab. I am a bit confused by your questions. I don't believe that I said it will provide spiritual benefits automatically, I said that it can. In fact, I said that for many women, it doesn't.

My point in writing that was to introduce non-Muslim readers to an idea they may not have seen before, namely that hijab can be an opportunity for spiritual growth for a woman. The argument was never intended to say that all women should wear hijab in order to obtain these benefits, merely that they might obtain the benefits if they did and had the right mindset. Could you clarify what part of that you have a problem with?

Following this, you asked me what I would do if I found no wisdom in Islamic rules. You specifically asked about pork, alcohol, and fasting. I'll address alcohol first. Alcohol has many negative effects, both in the short term (impairing a person's thinking and abilities) and over the long term (damage to health, alcoholism, etc). I see clear benefits to refraining from it. So that is not an issue for me.

For fasting, I also find many benefits and that they outweigh the negative effects that fasting may have. Many of these benefits are intangible, in terms of my feelings. No, those can't be scientifically measured, but they are nonetheless real and they make a positive difference in my life. In fact, I would have to say that in general. There are many things that benefit us only by making us feel better. Should we devalue those things just because we can't measure it or quantify it? Is an argument invalid because it mentions these intangible benefits?

Regarding pork, there are various arguments that have been made as to why refraining from pork may have beneficial effects on the health. I'm sure you can find those with Google if you so desire. However, for me the primary benefit is intangible and spiritual, namely I feel that it does me good to give up something that I might like now in the hopes of receiving something better in the future. Allahu alim.

As to your final question about no compulsion, I have answered that elsewhere or referred you to my answer.

OK, I think that's everything. If not, please let me know what I overlooked, and I'll try to get back to it. I've also held off from answering some things fully, in one case because I want feedback from you before proceeding and in the other case because I didn't want this comment to turn into a book.

We can look at this issue from two different points of view.1- textual 2- cultural and its effect on our interpretation of Quran.
When we are talking about any religious command, we should consider what is said in Quran as well as its cultural and historical background. In fact, whenever we want to interpret any verse of holy Quran, we need to study all aspects of the issue. There is not any doubt that Hijab is mentioned in Quran. But it is possible that our understanding of the rule of Hijab would be different. What is said in Quran is not crystal clear and our understanding can be different (which part should be covered). Some scholars think that Hijab is not necessary (obligatory) for Muslim women and women can choose to wear it or not. In fact, they say that a woman should choose for herself to respect Hijab or the Islamic code of dressing. (One of these scholars who advocated optional Hijab was once sentenced by a court to death for "waging war against God and apostasy" as well as to be defrocked last year. He is still in jail. His interpretation is more pluralistic. He thinks that if a Muslim woman does not wear hijab, she is not sinner and does not insult Islamic sanctities).
Another point is that 1400 years ago, Arab women did not wear this type of Hijab and according to some documents other nations like Iranians wore Hijab. Islam approved and recommended the modesty. However, as I said, the meaning of modesty can be different in different culture. Some like Talibans thought that all parts of women’s body should be under Hijab. Both of these interpretations are extreme examples
Regarding the Arab cultural dress of men, I wanted to emphasize on this point that the type of dressing is somehow cultural. Also many other things in our life. For example, anybody who see your website, he probably thinks you are Arab. I am not talking this is right or wrong. I just want to show you the effect of a culture on our behaviours. As a conclusion, I think that we can be Muslim but not like Arabs. It does not mean that being like Arabs is bad or good, rather, I would like to stress on this point that many things should be interpreted according the cultural issues as well. Please let me know what you think. I hope we can continue our discussions then.

I expect that one of our major differences of opinion is in regard to the hadiths. Perhaps you don't consider them to be authentic. I have read about the transmission of preservation of hadiths and of the methods that the scholars have used in collecting and interpreting them. I am convinced from this that the hadiths provide an authentic and sound basis for deriving the sunna.

I would be glad to discuss these issues with you but please understand that the way I choose to dress is the result of study as well as faith, and also that I really don't care whether people think that I'm Arab because of the way I dress. I care whether God thinks that I am doing my best to live up to His commands.